Forum:Race names for JP games
Progress Log ---- I noticed that we seem to be inconsistant on the race names we use for games only released in Japan. On some pages or for some games, we refer to the Japanese names (Majin, Yousai, Maou, etc) while on others we use the localized names (Deity/Fiend, as both are "Majin" somehow, Fairy, Tyrant, etc). So...which is the set we should use for Japanese only games as a whole?--Otherarrow (talk) 16:22, October 19, 2013 (UTC) :What if we use the Japanese name of demons types for Japanese-only titles, but still pipe to the relevant article when wikilinking? BLUER一番 04:44, October 20, 2013 (UTC) ::For Majin, I always insist on using Deity/Fiend for disambiguation in the writing, no particular preference for other race names. -- Inpursuit (talk) 10:31, October 20, 2013 (UTC) :::What Bluer suggested is what I thought was the policy, yes, so for the longest time, that is what I expected, but using the localized names seems to have started popping up more and I am not sure which is "correct". I am tempted to go with localization just because of the "Deity/Fiend" clarity, and if we are using one, we might as well use them all yes? I really don't know.--Otherarrow (talk) 11:27, October 20, 2013 (UTC) ::::The "correct" one is always what the game developers intended. I think it will be extra work for editors to determine which one Majin refers to between the 魔神 Deity and the 魔人Fiend. BLUER一番 01:05, October 21, 2013 (UTC) :With this being a primarily an english wiki, it might be better to use the localized words for the race names on demon pages, since thats the word by which most people will know the race. For most people, probably the only way they'd see (or need to know) the non-localized words is by playing an unofficial translation that just used romanji for the races (as with the SMT2 translation); anybody importing without being fluent would need to know the kana, so using the romanji doesnt really help there either. As long as the race pages themselves show the english (localized), kana, and romanji, anybody who wanted to learn/know the non-localized words would be able to. There is a certain logic in using the japanese for non-localized games, since it hasnt been officially localized, but realistically its already known that, for example, Maou is Tyrant and Yousei is Fairy, so why not just be consistent and use the localized words for the non-localized games as well? Tathra (talk) 02:35, October 21, 2013 (UTC) ::The use of localized names started popping up despite the Manual of Style stating in the Demons section that "in the case of games without US releases, use the Japanese name of the Clan". The original reason for the MoS is possibility of incorrect translation. If the present editors can vouch that translations we have are all correct, the Manual can always be revised and amended. ::This is also related with the community's decision to drop "Shin Megami Tensei" from localized titles i.e. the Raidou Kuzunoha series, because the official Japanese title did not carry them. The previous policy before that decision was made was already written in there, and will have to be amended reflecting current decision. ::These decisions will influence the way this wiki works and its best to get them written in the MoS as our point of reference - even though I'd wonder what's the use since even with the present Manual, content is written despite. BLUER一番 04:39, October 21, 2013 (UTC) Hi there. Me again. I was brought back to this topic by a reader friend of mine and...yeah, I pretty much agree with what Tathra is saying. It's confusing and kinda aggravating to readers to see races that have localized names be referred to by the Japanese name in games not released outside of Japan, especially since nowadays, the terms Atlus uses for the races is starting to stabilize (for example, "Daitenshi" has been universally "Herald" since Strange Journey; SMTI doesn't count since it was "Seraph", not even "Shitenshi" but "Seraph", even in the Japanese version). The only quibble with this is races who we flat out don't have a localized name for, and I have scolded folks in the past for "making up" English names. The best solution there is...leave those as is. Kyojin, Kaijuu, Futenshi, those have to stay for the time being. So yeah, we ready to fix this? It'd take a lot of work (and I mean a LOT of work) but yeah, I think it'd be for the better.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:04, June 12, 2014 (UTC) :I have no problem with that, on the ground that some fanslation is horribly inaccurate, so it's wise to leave the romaji be. -- Inpursuit (talk) 01:45, June 12, 2014 (UTC) :Yeah, I think it would make things a lot less messy and straightforward if we could do this. I have no problem with helping clean-up. --Zettaizetsubou (talk) 08:53, June 12, 2014 (UTC) :Do we have a guideline for this then? I would like to help as well. BLUER一番 21:43, June 13, 2014 (UTC) Well, here is what I had in mind (using the...complicated example of Herald as an example, with one exception) *'When referring to a officially translated game': Use whatever term Atlus USA used in that game (for example, Herald would be "Seraph" in context of Nocturne; "Light" in context of Digital Devil Saga) *'When referring to a officially untranslated game': Use whatever race name the localized material uses most recently and/or frequently (for example "Daitenshi" in the context of SMTII, if..., etc would be referred to as "Herald") **Quibble: When what is accepted to be an appearance of a race, but has a different Japanese name (For example, in Majin Tensei II, "Daitenshi" is replaced with "Shitenshi", but is more or less the same race. However, "Shitenshi" later appeared in Nocturne, where it was localized as "Hallel". So when referring to the MaTII "Shitenshi" demons, do we call them Herald race or Hallel race? Both are currently on, and thus would link to, the "Herald" page, but still.) *'When referring to a untranslated race in a untranslated game': Just use the romaji. (For example, "Kyojin" is to be kept as "Kyojin", even if every other race is given the English terms in the context of MTII and GMT) So how does that sound? All I need is that one quibble sorted out, then we can start! (Also, we need to move Seraph to Herald. We can fix the links as we fix up the Herald demon pages.)--Otherarrow (talk) 01:18, June 14, 2014 (UTC) :For the quibble, my opinion is that MTII's Shitenshi is in effect the Daitenshi which in our case points to Herald. :I like the table on "Seraph (race)" that compares the Atlus JP version to Atlus USA, convenient fact checking. We must always include the kanji/kana used in the untranslated Atlus JP games to make for comparison to the romaji we will use. BLUER一番 07:56, June 20, 2014 (UTC) ::It's a nice table, but I don't think I personally will be able to implement it. I mean, I dunno what the kanji/kana used in each game. As for the rest of it, how was the rest of it? (Also, Seraph/Herald, move?)--Otherarrow (talk) 17:53, June 20, 2014 (UTC) :::I agree with the first guideline, since I think it's rather obvious. For the second and third guideline, let me just understand this first - the second applies to races used in both officially localized and non-localized games, and the third for races that only appear in non-localized games, am I right? Because if that's the case then I agree. :::Also in the localized version, the term of the demon types are "Race", correct? Not Types or Genus? Because I'm a bit fussed about disambiguation in general. BLUER一番 18:32, June 20, 2014 (UTC) ::::I know SMTIV and the iOS release (as well as Imagine) definitely used race. I'm blanking on some of the others. And I don't mind handling pulling up the kanji/kana as needed for the race name tables. --Zettaizetsubou (talk) 19:47, June 20, 2014 (UTC) :::::P1 uses "Order", but most of the other games use Race. :::::Yes, the second guideline refers to races used in both localized and nonlocalized game, and the third to races that only appear in nonlocalized games. :::::Alright then, with that, I'm going to move Seraph then get started with that race and its involved demons.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:34, June 20, 2014 (UTC) ::::::We've done it with Seraph. Can I suggest a Progress Log so we can now where we are now in terms of how many more races left to move and clean? BLUER一番 07:08, June 22, 2014 (UTC) :::::::Hmm? Oh sure. I also did it with Divine, and on whatever stray demon pages I stumbled on in my browsing. Uhh, how would we go about that?--Otherarrow (talk) 14:22, June 22, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::I created one above to show the activity log. I could use your help or others to fill it in with the terms that needed replacing. BLUER一番 18:27, June 22, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::Sure sure! Ah, well, we should probably find a way to get folks to check in and update this too, aheh.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:18, June 22, 2014 (UTC) Ah, sorry, me again. I gotta say, I've been thinking it over and I do feel kinda, well...dishonest(?) with "correcting" things like Shitensei/Hallel to Herald or (it hasn't come up yet, but it will) Tenjin to Amatsu. I mean, on one hand, yes it's the same race in function and yes it's going to be linked to the same place, but just flat out saying "write the MaTII Shitenshi class as Herald" or "Tsukuyomi in MaTII is an Amatsu, despite the Japanese saying Tenjin" seems to be kinda overstepping our bounds with this. I mean, we know that Daitenshi is Herald because it's been used consistently as such since SJ, but can we say the same for Shitenshi (which, to note, actually has a separate English name)? Maybe I'm just overthinking this...--Otherarrow (talk) 12:52, June 26, 2014 (UTC) :I've just been leaving Tenjin when I see it, I think (Can only recall bumping into it at Amaterasu so far in regards to what I've worked on)? It seems more natural to leave it in those cases, because it's an official variant on the main name, similar to how we're not touching official variations coming from the English translations. Though I suppose that's something that should come to consensus before editing one way or another. --Zettaizetsubou (talk) 05:01, June 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Leave the romaji "Tenjin" be because in MT2 it also contains Susano-O and Futsunushi who don't belong to Amatsu in other games. -- Inpursuit (talk) 05:59, June 27, 2014 (UTC) :::Alright. Leave Tenjin as is. I can understand your reasoning there. What about Shitenshi? Leave it as it is (Herald), move it back to Shitenshi, or take Nocturne's lead and change it to Hallel? Leaving Tenjin as is kinda sets precedent that, no, we don't just autocorrect to the "traditional" English name if the Japanese name is different, even if it's otherwise the same race. (meanwhile, I am going to do the Amatsu).--Otherarrow (talk) 14:33, June 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::Honestly, the Shitenshi situation is odd. I'd lean towards leaving Shitenshi in the case of Majin Tensei? Since there doesn't seem to be overlap in terms of its Shitenshi and the Shitenshi used in Nocturne. It seems like it might set an overcomplicated precedent, though, so I could see the value in the other solutions as well. --Zettaizetsubou (talk) 01:55, June 28, 2014 (UTC) :::::Shitenshi is by far the biggest oddity, but I am against replacing MT Shitenshi with Hallel, the usage of Hallel is exclusive to Nocturne (so far). However, I agree to translate it "Seraph" if you want to avoid romaji because Seraph is the literally meaning of Shitenshi. -- Inpursuit (talk) 06:28, June 28, 2014 (UTC) ::::::Well, you also have to remember that "shitenshi" is only used in those two games. The only way it'd appear again is if Atlus suddenly decided to port/remake/whathaveyou Majin Tensei II. So it ain't just that the usage of Hallel is exclusive to Nocturne, the term being translated at all only happens in Nocturne. However, I'd prefer Shitensei over Seraph, if only because Seraph has already been used as both an alternate for Herald and as its own race name separate from Shitensei and Daitensei both, so it might confuse folks not aware of the different Japanese names. If that makes sense.--Otherarrow (talk) 11:55, June 28, 2014 (UTC) ...I ran into another quibble. Therian/Juujin. You see, the race originates in the original Megami Tensei, however, when the game was remade for Kyuyaku, "Juujin" was renamed "Youma". Now, what we've been doing is kinda "Kyuyaku takes precedence over MTI and MTII", if only for term consistancy with later games, so these demons are credited as Yoma in their statboxes (and I've gone ahead and changed "Juujin" to "Therian", but linked it to Yoma in the appearances list), and the Therian/Yoma demons from MTI are listed on both the Yoma and the Therian pages. Is this fine as it is?--Otherarrow (talk) 15:36, June 28, 2014 (UTC) Some stats table i.e. SMT II uses the terms Clan, I'd like to reaffirm that we are changing it to Race - but are there any exceptions? Also, we should remove the link in the Race parameters that create a link to the Race page i.e. "Foul Race" and such because it creates unnecessary redirects. BLUER一番 03:31, June 29, 2014 (UTC) :Nah, I think it should be "race" universally. I got the impression we were phasing out "clan" entirely. And yeah, stuff like "Foul Race" can go too.--Otherarrow (talk) 15:12, June 29, 2014 (UTC) ::Ugh, I went through the stats table and it was using the ifexist parameters. The last thing I want to do is break that table. BLUER一番 07:25, July 20, 2014 (UTC) I went through the Race and species table and touched on most of them, with the exception of touching DDS races on any demon pages (since that seems to be something that was still being discussed?). There's still likely some loose clan mentions from demons that aren't on race pages and some clan categories linked from talk pages and such. And, yeah, while it would be nice to phase out the clan usage entirely, I don't know how you'd deal with fixing templates. --Zettaizetsubou (talk) 15:15, August 8, 2014 (UTC) :If you meant DDSaga, it's weird. The races in those games are actually named after and grouped by the species in other games, so we'd link them to the species page, not any race page. If you meant DDStory, the only thing I can think of is the Therian/Yoma thing and my compromise seems to work out.--Otherarrow (talk) 16:06, August 8, 2014 (UTC) ::Yeah, DDSaga. Sorry for the mix-up. --Zettaizetsubou (talk) 16:15, August 8, 2014 (UTC)